SCULPTED SOULS

The film's protagonist is a Swiss dentist. What was it about his story that moved you most and prompted you to make a film with him?

The central figures of the film are the Swiss dentist Julien Grivel and the former Hansen's disease patient (leper) Manolis Fountoulakis. For 26 years (1972–1998) Julien came to Athens twice a year (often with his wife Christiane), and together they cared, free of charge, for the teeth of the Hansen's patients at “Agia Varvara” in Aigaleo. He and Uncle Manolis met at “Agia Varvara” and developed a long friendship. In the film, through his accounts, Manolis takes us back to the time when lepers were a public enemy and the social stigma they endured was harsher than the disease itself.

It is within this framework that Julien's great inner journey towards his own Ithaca takes place. He describes it in his book Greece, My Ithaca: “I discovered Greece through an outward invitation that turned into the inner journey of a constant search. ... My relationship with this country is rich, deep, intellectual. I noticed that by adopting the language of the Greeks, I unconsciously adopted their way of thinking too. ... an inner dive into a country that continues to give me the ‘beautiful journey’...” (back cover of the book)

And inside he continues: “... the patients whose teeth I fixed ... led me deep into the spirit, the thinking and the people of this wonderful country. The first person responsible for this marvellous revelation for me was Uncle Manolis, whom I met in 1973 at the hospital. He had been admitted after a relapse of the disease.” ... Later, in Elounda, Manolis would tell him: “You know, my friend, it is through trials like these that a person's soul comes out beautifully sculpted.”

That was what prompted us to get to know Julien and the “beautiful journey”, with the words of Seferis as our guide: “In this world that keeps growing narrower, we must seek out Man wherever he may be.”

It is very interesting that you don't focus on the protagonists' illness itself but on the human factor: the uncertainty in their lives, the tenderness they seek in their small and great moments, the hardships they endure and whatever ways they find to rise above them because of the illness. Was that a conscious decision?

Absolutely, and it is our choice. We focus neither on Julien's act itself, for all its greatness, nor on leprosy and the social exclusion of the patients. Those are the framework within which I approach the people who interest me. Our films are not about “subjects” but about people who draw me in and are willing to set out on a journey with me through the geography of their soul. In the recent films, FOR NO REASON, DEBT, FAREWELL and SCULPTED SOULS, the approach to the people is worked on and given shape even further. They are usually called human-centred. A friend described them as “anthropogeographies”, and I liked that.

What was your interaction with him like during filming?

The shoot was a dream experience for all of us, especially in Crete. We were together all the time, and that brought us very close. A band of friends who relished the experience and had fun with it.

Forget whatever associations the picture conjures up (for Greeks): Swiss, a doctor, 80 years old, and three Cretans on the other side... (there is more to this story)

Throughout the film Julien speaks flawless, excellent Greek. Paradoxically(?), there is no mention of ancient Greek glory, and it seems as if the man had truly absorbed what he writes: “...by adopting the language of the Greeks, I unconsciously adopted their way of thinking too”.

With Kostas and Manolis (sound recordist and cinematographer), we felt that the joy we gave these people – and received ourselves, of course – was already something important. Never mind if we didn't end up making a film at all (up to that point all we had for funding were good intentions). It was the least “thank you” we could offer, on behalf of their patients too. I won't say “on behalf of the country”. These things have names attached.

How did you handle the relationship between the archive material in the film and the present-day footage you shot with Julien?

We never met Uncle Manolis. He died in 2010. He is present in the film through archive material very generously given to us by our friends and colleagues Thodoris Papadoulakis and Silas Michalakas. They filmed him shortly before his death, for different reasons.

The script and the film were essentially made in the editing room. There, the relationship between the present-day footage (Julien) and the archive material (Uncle Manolis) occupied us constantly, right to the end. They were two very strong presences, their accounts were spellbinding, and they often pulled the story towards “leprosy”. That called for great care, because it wasn't our subject. We sketch Julien's inner journey, the sculpting of his soul through the experience he lives, and Uncle Manolis sketches the framework within which this happens.

During the shoot we had no idea what the final script would be. I remember Maniatis: “I don't know, I don't know, and that's why I write. Because you don't sit down to write what you know; you sit down to write what you don't know.” (FOR NO REASON)

The words “sculpting” and “souls” point to a process of transformation. Do you believe the protagonist and the patients were “sculpted” through this experience?

I can't speak for the patients; we will settle for the words of Uncle Manolis: “You know, my friend, it is through these hardships that a person's soul is beautifully sculpted.”

In the film Julien says: “I spent moments of eternity with these people. Very deep.... I met disabled people, young people without wrinkles, who had already attained great wisdom. Their lives had been shattered by a barbaric fate, and yet they remained standing...”. And before he thanks them: “The way I lived my life is connected with the way I am growing old”. It is this sculpting of the soul of our “protagonist” that we follow throughout the film.

If we assume that the shooting of every film is a small adventure that shapes (or, if you like, sculpts) a new perspective for its maker, was there any personal change or new way of thinking in the making of this documentary?

Every time I set out, I don't know what I am going to do. There are some initial ideas, but I deliberately don't go in with a ready-made script. Reality feeds me with far richer material.

In the editing room, endless hours of absorbing the material and inner silence may lead somewhere, may let you see a little light. That is the beauty of creation. “I carve, and it will show me what shape to give it”, Michalis replied when I asked him what he was doing as he carved a stone at the Chania Psychiatric Hospital (THE MAN WHO DISTURBED THE UNIVERSE).

With SCULPTED SOULS, at the start, watching the material, I was astonished and kept muttering to myself: “But this isn't Psillakis. It's beyond me.” I had to rise to the level of what I was seeing. I would invite people I love and respect, show them where we were and wait... They, captivated by our “protagonists”, would leave with very good impressions, while I was eating myself up inside, saying no, it's not there yet, it needs more. ... That is how I lived for months.

What's done is done, and it will be judged at the screenings. I don't know whether I came out of it any wiser. But I certainly came to adore documentary as fiction even more.

Were there particular moments or incidents that moved you especially?

Night has fallen and we are leaving Anogeia for Chania in the van. We have enjoyed the mantinades and the company of Gialaftis in the square, and the ofto with tsikoudia a little further up. In high spirits, we are all teasing each other. Kostas is driving, Manolis is beside him hugging the camera, and I am in the back keeping the good mood going. At one point I turn round laughing and say to Julien: Just so you know, you're in the car with three remalia. He senses I have told him something important and immediately opens his dictionary to look up “remali”. I stop him and start explaining to him in simple Greek what a “remali” is – a rascal, a good-for-nothing. Once he has understood, he explains it to Christiane too, and they burst out laughing: No, we are five remalia, he tells us. That's Julien and Christiane for you. The rest another time...

How do you think the story of Julien and the patients of Agia Varvara relates to today's health crises and forms of social exclusion? Do you think society still stigmatises illnesses the way it did with leprosy in the past?

I find it hard to say anything that isn't cheap, commonplace sloganeering. In my lifetime the speed and effectiveness of medical treatment for such conditions have changed significantly. As for society's attitude towards the “lepers” of each era, I don't know whether anything has changed...

It would be more useful to repeat Julien's words at the “M. F.” Library: I love the library very much, because the world should be like a library: we see so many different and contradictory volumes coexisting and tolerating one another, for the beauty of the world.

The film is taking part in the International Competition section of the 27th Thessaloniki International Documentary Festival and will be screened on Wednesday 12/3/2025 at 20:00 at the OLYMPION (Aristotelous Square) and on Thursday 13/3/2025 at 15:00 in the John Cassavetes hall, Warehouse 1, Port.